Curse

Pantaloon · May 29, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I watched about 66% of the playoff matches but not even a full game of the finals. Spike builds are boring to watch so I left about 10 minutes in.

cookiemonkie · May 29, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Bleh, if you didn't like how the finals played out tell that to ANET. iB got a taste of their own medicine with the build they ran against WM in game #2. What goes around came around on the same map. When ANET designed the imperial isle room... er I mean map, they would have have known that it was just too poorly designed to be able to split effectively and counter spikes. Don't blame the players or guild for using skills that go right through protective spirit, spirit bond etc since it isn't considered "damage" even though the spike loss in health is effectively just that. Ask ANET why the map is the way it is and why the skills are the way they are, not the players.

bgnato · May 29, 2006, 09:20 AM // 09:20

This was a final. People cannot expect interesting or innovatory builds. Its same like all finals in the world (Football or whatever). Teams are playing for the first place, not for fun. Thats all. I doubt that EW gonna run this FoC spike in ladder season. I mean they will have problems with raiting if every single game comes to VoD

So if you wanna win, you must make whatever it needs. Thats all.

Patrograd · May 29, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

I have always enjoyed watching and playing against EW. They were certainly, by a long, long way the best team that [SaS] played last season during the ladder (and they weren't running anything like this build at that time).

Well done guys, your success is richly deserved.

I imagine we will now see an outbreak of FOC spiking in GvG. Played against IQ last night when guesting on Imperial isle.....you can guess what they were running :-)

Death by Apple · May 29, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookiemonkie

Bleh, if you didn't like how the finals played out tell that to ANET. iB got a taste of their own medicine with the build they ran against WM in game #2. What goes around came around on the same map.

iB played a spike build once as they did in the final as well. EW found an effective build and used it well. iB were the best team at balanced in the playoffs they got to the finals by playing balanced mostly. I was disapointed with the final yes but the 2nd game was good (if a little one sided) I thought the recall warriors were amazing.

In my opinion iB were the best guild at balanced and EW were the best at spikeing. Spikeing should be nerfed because I predict it will take over gvg and that will be all you will see and only the best guilds will be able to play balanced and still win. And yes it was the worst final ever.

Northrog · May 29, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

I feel depressed when I saw necro spike roaming in the high end GvG tournament... They stand in HoH all the day, and now they pollute GvG... The metagame is over boring : N spike + IWAY. That's almost all. What's the meaning of creating eight class and a lot of skills for each, if everyone just play the two above builds ?...

It's not just a matter of winning or losing, it's a matter of pleasure. Playing over and over against the same teams is just boring.

Lorven · May 29, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Northrog , Your confusing between blood spike and FoC spike. FoC spike is not something very commonly run , and it is quite more harder to organize. Also, As Elendar(sp?) Said , iB was running a gimmick build (fast cast air) aswell , so shut your trap OP.

cookiemonkie · May 29, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death by Apple

iB played a spike build once as they did in the final as well. EW found an effective build and used it well. iB were the best team at balanced in the playoffs they got to the finals by playing balanced mostly. I was disapointed with the final yes but the 2nd game was good (if a little one sided) I thought the recall warriors were amazing.

In my opinion iB were the best guild at balanced and EW were the best at spikeing. Spikeing should be nerfed because I predict it will take over gvg and that will be all you will see and only the best guilds will be able to play balanced and still win. And yes it was the worst final ever.

Spiking has come and gone and still has its niche but, taking over GvG... Don't over exagerrate. Granted the imperial isle map is an unworthy map of GvG and belongs in HA. Spiking WAS the metagame and is now a niche or surprise build that EW used effective on a map that the build is just about unbeatable with right now on that map...... On any other GvG map, there is room for teams to split. On the imperial isle "courtyard" its simply a slug fest at the flag stand becuase there isn't any room for a team to move anywhere without being spotted on radar. Don't whine about EW winning, send your complaints to ANET for creating a 1/2 size and 1/2 assed GvG map.

flyyments · May 29, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorven

Northrog , Your confusing between blood spike and FoC spike. FoC spike is not something very commonly run , and it is quite more harder to organize. Also, As Elendar(sp?) Said , iB was running a gimmick build (fast cast air) aswell , so shut your trap OP.

Hah! We created FC Air with Valandor over a year ago so quit whining nerd

Ado · May 29, 2006, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northrog

I feel depressed when I saw necro spike roaming in the high end GvG tournament... They stand in HoH all the day, and now they pollute GvG... The metagame is over boring : N spike + IWAY. That's almost all. What's the meaning of creating eight class and a lot of skills for each, if everyone just play the two above builds ?...

It's not just a matter of winning or losing, it's a matter of pleasure. Playing over and over against the same teams is just boring.

Off-topic: there will be a skillbalance in 3 days, rumours are that both bloodspike and FoCspike wil get nerfed.

On-topic: like other people have said, this is a tournement. You only participate to win it. About having pleasure with a certain build. For most people, winning gives pleasure. It's not like HA or GvG when ladder is frozen, where you can try out stuff, or play a build from which you know it's not the most effective one for holding halls, because you know that if you'll lose, it has no concequences. In HA i have pleasure in playing uncommon or certain balanced build, developing my teamtacticskills etc. But if I would take part in a tournement, I trully wouldn't care how I'll win it. The world championship football is coming up. I don't think anyone will be bothered if their country wins it by playing "not beautifull".

Viscera · May 29, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

While the final game was a bit slow due to there being two builds that couldn't effectively get many kills, I'm not sure that it's the fault of the gimmick. IB just had a build that didn't match up, and isn't that a large element that tournaments should come down to, choosing the right build to counter your opponent?

I have to say that I really enjoyed the last EW vs. SotW match. SotW epitmized the slow defensive builds that often do well in tournaments, but are tedious to watch. I was thrilled to see such an approach be destroyed by something as simple as an FoC spike.

I'm glad that Elendar has allayed my fears of gvg turning to a gimmick metagame like HoH has, in that gimmicks rely on knowing the map. Which makes me think that Arenanet should probably avoid this situation in the future by having teams play on a random guild map.

Northrog · May 29, 2006, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorven

Northrog , Your confusing between blood spike and FoC spike. FoC spike is not something very commonly run , and it is quite more harder to organize. Also, As Elendar(sp?) Said , iB was running a gimmick build (fast cast air) aswell , so shut your trap OP.

I'm not confusing things at all. A N spike can be FOC, Blood or even Oppressive gaze based. But this is a N spike with spirit spamming, infinite energy and a lot of heal... Sorry for this off topic detail...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ado

like other people have said, this is a tournement. You only participate to win it. About having pleasure with a certain build. For most people, winning gives pleasure.

You're obviously right. I was off topic when sharing my HoH feeling and watching the final sadly contributed to it (And the last runs in HoH facing 80% various N spike too...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ado

there will be a skillbalance in 3 days, rumours are that both bloodspike and FoCspike wil get nerfed.

Everyone was expecting that. For the sake of variety this a good thing.

emp · May 29, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

FC air with bonder didn't sound too bad on paper. We thought we would have a chance against necro spike (the first time EW didn't have enchantment removal and we thought they had only one copy of shelter) and other spike build they could bring. However, as seen afterwards, they had too much defense and we couldn't break it. So, I don't see the point to complain about our defense as we only started dying after 10 mins, when it was practically a lost match anyways: fast cast air spike relies on chain killing people, not defending from the other team.

EW brought right builds on imperial isle and won, simple as that. It's partially lottery and partially about reading your opponent. We couldn't make a direct, specific counter to FoC spike, because we couldn't know for sure what build EW was going to use.

~ emp of iB

Squirrelly · May 29, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

This season was kind of gimmicky with all the smite/spike/thumpway running around. Half the teams that are usually top 25ish guilds weren't even close due to all the aforementioned builds. However, guilds that are truly great will USUALLY find a way to beat spike, especially if it's not on the imperial isle.

Congrats to EW for winning. You guys played well to get here and deserve it.

TomD22 · May 29, 2006, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by emp

FC air with bonder didn't sound too bad on paper. We thought we would have a chance against necro spike (the first time EW didn't have enchantment removal and we thought they had only one copy of shelter) and other spike build they could bring. However, as seen afterwards, they had too much defense and we couldn't break it. So, I don't see the point to complain about our defense as we only started dying after 10 mins, when it was practically a lost match anyways: fast cast air spike relies on chain killing people, not defending from the other team.

EW brought right builds on imperial isle and won, simple as that. It's partially lottery and partially about reading your opponent. We couldn't make a direct, specific counter to FoC spike, because we couldn't know for sure what build EW was going to use.

~ emp of iB

I see what you mean - a life barrier bonder vs spike really should make sense, shame it didn't work out.

Incidentally, when my guild (Silentium Altum) were all watching the match on observer we were all saying on vent that you were playing too defensively - concentrating on interrupts - and just not spiking enough to pressure them. We kinda felt that even with two shelters if you had spiked every five seconds (as you can with orb) then you might have been able to overwhelm them and get some kills. After all, if you spike very often and fast even if only 10% of your spikes actually come off you are still dropping people. They of course were relying on a necro to infuse with, and if you spike often and fast then he won't dare do anything but hover with his finger on the infuse button (so that's one foc'er you've shut down right there). So this was our view - if you had been more aggressive you might have gotten a few more kills and had a chance to break them, whereas by being totally defensive and trying to gale and cry everything some spikes will still get through and kill you off. I'm not meaning to criticise, and things are of course easier when you're not there in the middle of it, but that's what we all thought when watching.

What would you say to that? Are we totally wrong, and was being defensive and interrupting the only thing that stopped you getting rolled in about 2 mintues? Or do you think that if you had been more offensive and spiked faster you might have got some kills and made it more of a fight? Just interested to know from the perspective of someone actually in the match.

Oh, and also, gg to solo-gank-mesmer (i forget the name). He nearly had that flagger

. That was just about the only bit of that match that was actually entertaining to watch.

[EW]Elendar · May 29, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by emp

EW brought right builds on imperial isle and won, simple as that. It's partially lottery and partially about reading your opponent. We couldn't make a direct, specific counter to FoC spike, because we couldn't know for sure what build EW was going to use.

~ emp of iB

As he says tournaments are very much a guessing game of what your opponent will run, we gambled they'd foc spike us on the 2nd map, or at least the normal spike surge build, but got it completely wrong and got destroyed by a split our build wasn't prepared for
Like our 1st game vs rifts, they where running a gimmic build that had beaten our warriors in the ladder not long before so we guessed right and had adapted to it allowing us to beat it without too much trouble.

Tournaments are a lot of mind games working out what your opponents will run and what to run against them

flyyments · May 29, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD22

I see what you mean - a life barrier bonder vs spike really should make sense, shame it didn't work out.

Incidentally, when my guild (Silentium Altum) were all watching the match on observer we were all saying on vent that you were playing too defensively - concentrating on interrupts - and just not spiking enough to pressure them. We kinda felt that even with two shelters if you had spiked every five seconds (as you can with orb) then you might have been able to overwhelm them and get some kills. After all, if you spike very often and fast even if only 10% of your spikes actually come off you are still dropping people. They of course were relying on a necro to infuse with, and if you spike often and fast then he won't dare do anything but hover with his finger on the infuse button (so that's one foc'er you've shut down right there). So this was our view - if you had been more aggressive you might have gotten a few more kills and had a chance to break them, whereas by being totally defensive and trying to gale and cry everything some spikes will still get through and kill you off. I'm not meaning to criticise, and things are of course easier when you're not there in the middle of it, but that's what we all thought when watching.

What would you say to that? Are we totally wrong, and was being defensive and interrupting the only thing that stopped you getting rolled in about 2 mintues? Or do you think that if you had been more offensive and spiked faster you might have got some kills and made it more of a fight? Just interested to know from the perspective of someone actually in the match.

Oh, and also, gg to solo-gank-mesmer (i forget the name). He nearly had that flagger

. That was just about the only bit of that match that was actually entertaining to watch.

nah, you are right we should've fought it more aggressive as Uhvl said after the game but no can do. dunno if it would've worked but that's what we should have done anyways. dual shelter & enc removal kinda ruined our amazing tactics in the first place tho but if they would've played with the exact build that they used on the first game we might've had a chance.
playoffs are a lottery as emp said

Poison Ivy · May 29, 2006, 11:59 AM // 11:59

How do you guys even finish observing 1 single full GvG is beyond me...

For me, after 1 minute of watching, I get ichy and starts craving for battle ><

just call me jimmy · May 29, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Awesome reponces Gang!!! I tuned out the ones that called people scrubs and fools, because those people probably have a combined IQ of 1. I totaly agree with what some of you posted about playing to win, and your points a valid and well thought out. GJ on the responces.
1 thing though for you top guild to remember though, wether you listen is up to you. Watching or using over powered builds is abit like watching paint dry. If people stop watching you, then you have no audience. If you have no audience then being rank 1 looses it's luster.

Just a thought

TheOneMephisto · May 29, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

How do you guys even finish observing 1 single full GvG is beyond me...

For me, after 1 minute of watching, I get ichy and starts craving for battle ><

Their not that bad usually. It's kind of like watching some sports, where just watching the masters and learning from them is amazing.